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 6.) Other Prophets and Prophecies
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 The coming economic and social upheaval
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halifax
Advanced Member


837 Posts

Posted - Mar 06 2010 :  6:17:11 PM  Show Profile Send halifax a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I thought it time to move the economic discussion to a new thread as the old one was set up specifically in advance of the 2008 stock market decline (crash?). The US stock market is only one piece of a very large puzzle so I have started this new thread, which is about moving on covering opinions and news about the coming economic implosion, and the expected social upheaval associated with it including the speculated/predicted riots.

As the western economic world headed by the United States continues to head in the wrong direction, the real core of this topic should move onto the health of actual nations, not just corporations or the financial markets.

The corporate world overcooked the economy through devious and clever means that resulted in a massive debt problem that almost crashed the western economy, governments bailed them out and that has done nothing more than move the problem from the corporate world to the governments.

Lately if you have been following the financial news, you would have heard more reference to sovereign debt. This is the next big problem in the puzzle facing us all. Actual countries risk going broke. If that occurs, obligations such as infrastructure maintenance, health, pensions, emergency services etc cannot be paid for resulting in a reduction or elimination of services. This potentially creates the environment for riots and social upheaval.

I decided to list the new topic as ‘The coming economic and social upheaval’. I hope that everyone will find it more appropriate and relevant going forward. After all the forum is about the information Mike puts in his website and this is one of his predictions in regards to the economy and social issues in the future. And right now Iceland and Greece are first out the gate to air the seriousness of this issue, that is, the potential of whole nations going broke and all that follows such a mess.

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halifax
Advanced Member



837 Posts

Posted - Mar 06 2010 :  6:24:16 PM  Show Profile Send halifax a Private Message  Reply with Quote
“Ordinary people, farmers and fishermen, taxpayers, doctors, nurses, teachers, are being asked to shoulder through their taxes a burden that was created by irresponsible greedy bankers,” said President Olafur R. Grimsson, whose rejection of the bill resulted in the plebiscite'

Icelanders Reject Icesave Bill in Referendum, Results Show

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halifax
Advanced Member



837 Posts

Posted - Mar 06 2010 :  6:28:37 PM  Show Profile Send halifax a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The failure of governments across the world to regulate the financial markets is an expression of the extent to which the major banks dictate government policy

Finance capital and the Greek debt crisis


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halifax
Advanced Member



837 Posts

Posted - Mar 06 2010 :  6:32:10 PM  Show Profile Send halifax a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Amid angry protests in Greece

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pacino
Senior Member



Canada
722 Posts

Posted - Mar 06 2010 :  10:00:43 PM  Show Profile  Visit pacino's Homepage Send pacino a Private Message  Reply with Quote
great topic halifax! So Iceland and Greece are the first two countries to experience social and economic unrest. The big question is: "Are they heading towards civil war?" as prophecies narrate civil wars and famine at the end of times. If this is true, then we might see civil war erupt in france, the U.S. etc..

NEWS: Icelanders reject deal to repay British and Dutch

REYKJAVIK (Reuters) - Icelandic voters vented their fury on Saturday at the bankers and politicians who ruined the economy, overwhelmingly rejecting a $5 billion deal to repay debts to Britain and the Netherlands.

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*****

UPDATE 2-Street clashes as Greek parliament approves austerity

* Flights cancelled, schools closed, tear gas used

* Poll shows opposition to VAT hike, pension freeze

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pacino
Senior Member



Canada
722 Posts

Posted - Mar 07 2010 :  1:35:20 PM  Show Profile  Visit pacino's Homepage Send pacino a Private Message  Reply with Quote
MONEY AND MARKETS: "Fear and Instability to Spread from Country to Country - The Domino Effect"

In a global crisis, sovereign debt fears have the ability to be contagious. Such fears can destroy investor confidence in the capital markets of troubled countries, as well as in the overall global economy....

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halifax
Advanced Member



837 Posts

Posted - Mar 07 2010 :  6:15:15 PM  Show Profile Send halifax a Private Message  Reply with Quote
There are rumblings in the media that the UK government are secretly reviewing tax changes to cover their increasing and worrying national debt. Apparently, one of the items considered is placing a tax on groceries.

If that is the case and it goes ahead we should expect a huge public response in the UK and not for the better, after all there have been very big people power protests held in that country in past years if the issue is deemed big enough to take action and protest. I would imagine taxing fresh food in particular would raise the ire and interest of everyday people. Maybe food tax riots.

Darkcomet/Thomsop – if either of you are still about, what do you hear on the ground there regarding this? (As you both live in the UK?)



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pacino
Senior Member



Canada
722 Posts

Posted - Mar 07 2010 :  7:53:18 PM  Show Profile  Visit pacino's Homepage Send pacino a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Tax on groceries? if they attempt to do that in Canada I would go down riot personally! I am located in Quebec and the provincial/ federal taxes here are already ABOVE ridiculous = 14%.

Not to mention that the price of food here has already soared 20-40% in barely 1-2 years.

The last thing we need here is the grocery tax.. and I am sure that people will go down and demonstrate on the streets if any increase of tax sees the light.

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Edited by - pacino on Mar 07 2010 7:54:23 PM
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Conor
Moderator



Ireland
1174 Posts

Posted - Mar 08 2010 :  04:23:49 AM  Show Profile Send Conor a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Ireland too is in serious difficulty, we have been for the last eighteen months. The country is on its knees and the government is about to fall. We actually have more debt than Greece but a lot of our debt is due to foreign banking as well as our own. Unemployment is now at 20% whereas two years ago it was 2%.

Take my company for example, we have gone from 550 to 360 in the space of 12 months, with more redundancies on the way. No one knows what to do at all so the country just keeps sliding towards complete ruination, I dont think even the IMF would bail us out!!!
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Darkcomet
Moderator



United Kingdom
596 Posts

Posted - Mar 08 2010 :  05:43:43 AM  Show Profile Send Darkcomet a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Please excuse my lack of effort on this forum just lately. I am still lurking about and watching everything that is going on.

Halifax...I have to be honest, I don't know at this time. Food prices have been slowly but steadily getting more costly. And, judging by what is happening, food prices will continue to rise. I will keep my eye on this.

I am more concerned with the underlying issue of why our goverments are letting this happen in the first place? I have my suspicions, but, I will only speak when I can confirm them. Right now I am stuck in a quagmire of moral questions that are being raised. All I can say is... the human race as a whole needs to pull together and stop quarreling amongst itself. Mike's prediction's are becomming more and more fulfilled, that is one of the reasons I found this site. But what frightens me more is, what can happen and what Mike is saying can happen. We are being pushed as a race of people in a persuit and for a goal that is starting to make those in charge lose sight of what it means to be human. As odd as it sounds, our leaders have already began to take us down a road to hell. For me it has become so in your face right now it's hard to ignore.

If you tremble indignation
at every injustice
then you are a comrade of mine.
- Ernesto Che Guevara -




Edited by - Darkcomet on Mar 09 2010 04:39:30 AM
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halifax
Advanced Member



837 Posts

Posted - Mar 08 2010 :  4:52:33 PM  Show Profile Send halifax a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Interesting comments Darkcomet, tend to agree with you. Conor – I know that Ireland has some real financial issues and I do recall you raising some time ago about a protest in Dublin that brought out the bulk of the population to protest.

One of the issues you may have there is the very thing that got Ireland back on the map in the 1990’s was government assisted R & D coupled with manufacturing especially in IT. But unfortunately like everyone else in the IT business they have found software development in India and hardware manufacturing in China are far too competitive due to cheaper costs.

Of course Iceland and Greece have been aired quite a bit lately but Spain, Portugal and Ireland are not too far behind in this problem. And the UK, well no one is really sure how big the problem is in the UK despite various commentary in the media. Of all the above the UK will be the litmus test, and of course we shouldn’t forget how Germany and France will react within the EU about problems in the poorer EU nations, they might not provide the lifeline some are expecting. Today I noticed Portugal has announced they will hand down an austerity budget in the same manner as Greece to reduce spending (cut services) and sell assets.

It would seem we are already somewhat travelled down this path in the process in which nations either cut back significantly or are in the first stages of going broke. At least there are some forum members in key countries to monitor and report as things develop to give the rest of us insight as this unfolds. If the food tax in the UK gets any support let us know Darkcomet as that would be a catalyst for some major protesting or even riots in the streets we would imagine.
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halifax
Advanced Member



837 Posts

Posted - Mar 08 2010 :  5:30:15 PM  Show Profile Send halifax a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I should have added that Germany has suggested in an EU meeting regarding the Greece debt issues that the Greeks consider selling off some of the state owned islands to private buyers or in one suggestion if Germany does help out Greece should in return hand over some islands for payment.

The suggestion has not gone down well in Greece but as the Germans have said if a person goes bankrupt they sell off their assets to pay their creditors. In Greece’s case that is the same issue, they are broke and yes the can cut spending and services, increase revenue by increasing taxes, both of which have now been approved but they should also start selling off islands not being used. Greece is a preview of what happens when people want their money and now they want it from nations who owe them. It is going to get interesting form here.


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Darkcomet
Moderator



United Kingdom
596 Posts

Posted - Mar 09 2010 :  04:56:23 AM  Show Profile Send Darkcomet a Private Message  Reply with Quote
My first impression would be, the people are going to be split on the food tax. Half will be angry they are paying the price for our goverments lack of management, others will feel it is their responsibility to honor putting them in charge in the first place. I don't think the general public quite understand that no matter who was in charge, this was a move set in stone by our goverments. Why they are doing this(to me anyway) is more important now. They have done this to cover their backsides, because they know things are about to profoundly change. Quite what that change is, no one is sure. I am under the impression from profesional people, that they are getting ready for something, but because this is so vast, the information is split into so many tiny fragments, no one is putting them together. I will say this, there seems to be some sort of spiritual arguement going on and those who are involved are taking this extreemly seriously.

If you tremble indignation
at every injustice
then you are a comrade of mine.
- Ernesto Che Guevara -



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halifax
Advanced Member



837 Posts

Posted - Mar 09 2010 :  6:17:58 PM  Show Profile Send halifax a Private Message  Reply with Quote
But what if the Banks and in particular the central banks in the western capitalist system control both the government and government policy in their respective country’s / unions? The federal reserve dictating to the US administration, the ECB dictating to the EU members, the bank of england dictating to Gordon Brown etc. Isn’t that what Rothschild effectively started back in the late 18th century?

If that’s the case then TPTB really are the bankers and the servants the governments in the western world. Therefore, the governments may have little or no real control of the outcome despite the public lip service they provide on all matters financial. While the system has worked somewhat for three hundred years, it may not going forward.

To your point DC there may be a major shift in attitude and thinking from various sectors how to deal with this for the future, what that thinking is remains a mystery because no one yet has come forward to present a revolutionary change. And unfortunately especially in the western world the business of living revolves around an increasing complex financial system that no one in the civilized world can escape from.

As an example where you live, what role does the EU really want the UK to play in the future? Even though the UK government has been steadfast on staying out of the EU to retain power in London rather than allowing Brussels more influence on British matters, is it going to be the government’s decision at the end of the day? If the ECB and B of E were to decide the UK in the EU is a better arrangement, what steps would they undertake to make such a transition? Might create some pain for the British community, as people always want change when things are bad, a poor battered Britain would become a soft target for TPTB in Europe. Just a thought, and I understand you are referring to more than just financial matters, but this is just one angle to ponder.


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Darkcomet
Moderator



United Kingdom
596 Posts

Posted - Mar 10 2010 :  07:27:57 AM  Show Profile Send Darkcomet a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Halifax, you know more than me on the financial side of things, I am speaking strictly from a novice point of view. In the past, when countries have switched to the euro, the people as a whole have genrally lost out.

Rothschild's set up a system that benifited a small elite for a goal. I believe that goal is now changing or coming to a head. I am a bit reluctant to say, because I am not an expert on the financial system, but I am learning as fast as I can. I can see your point on the banks controlling the goverments, but I get the impression that's a two way street from both sides.

I think (and I may be wrong) a good way of change might be to shift the tax from the people(as income tax), to the responsibility of the businiess world, in order to scale down a shift in power from large companies, but I doubt that system(or the people behind it) would cater to the people and effectively lose complete control. So back to square one.

As for keeping out of the EU, they aready have enough power over the UK as it is and dictate more than most of us are allowed to say in public. The queen I think has a lot of influence in this mater, and exercises that power. Hence, we are under EU rule but no one will actually put their hand up to admit it in fear of rocking the boat. There are other people involved too, not just royalty.

I appriciate your understanding of this, and, I am very interested in what you have to say. I will try to keep up with your posts, but please take into consideration, I am learning all this in a very short period of time. Cheers!



If you tremble indignation
at every injustice
then you are a comrade of mine.
- Ernesto Che Guevara -



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halifax
Advanced Member



837 Posts

Posted - Mar 11 2010 :  6:22:43 PM  Show Profile Send halifax a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Still in Europe – first we had the Iceland repayment saga, then the Greek crisis, which with unpopular cost cutting believe they can get the country back on track even while the masses protest. Then Portugal came forward but has successfully achieved two things very quickly, produce a cost cutting budget and sell off debt via the open market, so the wolves have been kept at bay in those two small countries of the EU. Ireland also has its problems (as confirmed by Conor) but inside the EU they seem OK if that country defaults because once again it is a small partner in the EU and with similar approach of Greece and Portugal could get through.

But Spain is now in the spotlight and this is one country the EU knows is too big an economical partner to allow to default as this would impact the EU greatly. With a housing bust, 20% unemployment and government fiscal issues Spain could be the real first hot button to go off, depending on what steps are taken and to what extent to introduce severe cost cutting. Remember cost cutting means reduction or elimination of services. Still inside the EU, concerns have also been raised over Italy and how some of the local governments inside the country have borrowed money. There are rumblings of a ticking financial disaster there also.

Germany and France have raised concerns over the situation in the UK even though they are not in the EU, because their Banks are exposed to British debt, this could trigger speculators to sell down the Pound Sterling even further in turn creating a bigger headache in London.

Meanwhile China continues to insist it will not continue to buy US debt at the same rate it has in the past, and this is already evident in 2010 to date as they reduce their exposure, but the US needs someone to continue to buy the dbet in order to avoid a default. China this year in particular argues it can do more to increase domestic demand, even while cooling the economy, and move away from US centric reliance for majority of exports, and to further expand trade within Asia, which it continues to do.
In a nutshell we have the EU and the US plus the UK to one side facing potentially huge cost cutting exercises at some point in the medium term future, which as we saw in both Iceland and Greece created an uncomfortable reaction from the public.


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